Curse

Sinful Doom · Nov 08, 2007, 02:31 AM // 02:31

Sorry to interrupt your assassin discussion but I would like to bump this suggestion back up as I know everyone would appreciate it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

Also some suggestions: 20 tournament tokens= 1 Reward point

I wouldnt mind seeing it be 10 tokens for 1 RP. :P

Riotgear · Nov 08, 2007, 02:48 AM // 02:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Impale is for DM DA builds, not CS DM builds.

Impale basically lets you get the same thing as you'd get out of Horns/Twisting except with a lot more damage at the cost of one skill slot. It's a problem. The damage component is excessive with the DW provided.

Quote:

personally I dont think bos was INTENDED to be used with another off hand IN the combo.

It was buffed when double-dual had been the norm for a very long time, lead-skips have been the norm since day one. I can't see how it was intended for use in anything other than double-dual combos.

Quote:

If you can fix it so that only 1 dual attack can be on the bar >.> You show me BoS's imbalance >.>

The only reason BoS didn't used to be a problem was because Horns and Twisting were both mandatory, neither of which is the case any more. Show you its imbalance? Uh.... Twisting Fangs = +36 damage, Blades of Steel + Impale = +120 damage and 60 earth damage? Sounds a bit imbalanced to me.

Quote:

Making Shadow Prison 50% fail with less than 6 Deadly Arts is nice too.

Typical SP spike is 13 CS, 13 DM, 7 DA anyway.

raddaman · Nov 08, 2007, 03:27 AM // 03:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Impale is for DM DA builds, not CS DM builds.

However people are using CS DM builds and just adding impale for deepwound.

Solution
Impale: 5 Deadly Arts or Less 50% chance of failure

Making Shadow Prison 50% fail with less than 6 Deadly Arts is nice too.

Don't sins normally take one away from DM, leaving you with 6+1 for deadly arts?

DA was probably meant for damage support, not an actual spike. A DA spike also has little counters, and it's pretty much bad for the game.

Lead-offhand needs some kind of buff. It would also be useful for CS to have more uses with one hits so duals won't be the only thing to get positive energy back.

I'd agree with the HotO gain back 4e more, due to stopping the rest of the combo if you failed. Gives a little more notice to block (even if it would stop the rest anyway) and positioning.

Captain Robo · Nov 08, 2007, 03:52 AM // 03:52

Putting a 50% fail chance without X points in an attribute on a skill does not fix any problems.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Nov 08, 2007, 10:07 AM // 10:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by kosh

why do ppl with "Lack Of Talent " respond? or talk? and they add "nub" after making a statement with not even backing it up. go go go pve.

As opposed to people in [herb]?

The death blossom chain actually does more damage than the twisting + bos bar people used to run, the disadvantage it has in comparison to the current SP bars however is the lack of horns/a kd which is quite a big difference.

The most problematic attack skill is BLS because it allows you to use the chain without pausing to get energy back or need for high CS.

Although I've seen people run BMT -> Jungle Strike -> Trampling Ox -> Falling Lotus, Twisting/BoS which seemed be almost equally effective.

moriz · Nov 08, 2007, 03:10 PM // 15:10

another place to be considered is the IAS. let's face it, the assassin was not created with the possibility of an IAS in mind. tiger stance currently allow the assassin to run long combos with less fear of interruption and being too slow in getting off that big hit.

so, perhaps nerfs along the line of BoA is in order:

tigerstance: 1...12 sec
flail: 1.....whatever sec
lightning reflexes: 1....10 sec

i'm not too sure about flurry though. putting it in strength and make its duration scale will make it even more useless that it currently is.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Nov 08, 2007, 03:20 PM // 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

another place to be considered is the IAS. let's face it, the assassin was not created with the possibility of an IAS in mind. tiger stance currently allow the assassin to run long combos with less fear of interruption and being too slow in getting off that big hit.

so, perhaps nerfs along the line of BoA is in order:

tigerstance: 1...12 sec
flail: 1.....whatever sec
lightning reflexes: 1....10 sec

i'm not too sure about flurry though. putting it in strength and make its duration scale will make it even more useless that it currently is.

Sins work fine without IAS.

moriz · Nov 08, 2007, 03:36 PM // 15:36

yes, and they work too well with IAS.

Riotgear · Nov 08, 2007, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

The most problematic attack skill is BLS because it allows you to use the chain without pausing to get energy back or need for high CS.

Dropping Shadow Arts from the bar has left more attribute points available to put in CS anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Although I've seen people run BMT -> Jungle Strike -> Trampling Ox -> Falling Lotus, Twisting/BoS which seemed be almost equally effective.

Trampling Ox + Falling Lotus might be the same problem all over again, and is going to make another mess to clean up when/if BLS finally sees a nerf. I think it's kind of amusing that 11 energy has the same "weight" as 18 seconds of poison. If Assassins were balanced when their attack chain wasn't paying for itself, I fail to see how energy management being part of a viable chain could possibly be a good idea.

Monk Gsb · Nov 08, 2007, 04:47 PM // 16:47

wow gogogo nerf every IAS for every profesion because ppl cant use there brains on how to counter sp sin GFG.

if u are talking about hb take mass hex removal veil works nice teamed with reverse.

and take a hex build you as a mes/a ineptitude >clumsy coungers + auspisious and recall + 1d/p 1 mo/n and 1 mo/e degen there monk out with counger phantasm > auspisious > nightmare, then go back to ineptitude > clumsy spam on the sin, the monk wont be able to heal himself and the sin at the same time.

if ur talking about ra/ta eaisy
take stances...
and/or sheild bash and time it for his 2nd lead ( yes u can actualy use it on somthing other then monks (zomg)).

in ha, the meta being r/w with 2 n/rit's and 1 rit/mes(expell)

expell + wep of ward ftw ? end of sp vs meta

most ballence teams run with 3 monks ( or 2 top class monk who shoudent die to a sp sin any ways) but if u die vs an sp sin with a 3 man backline, GET NEW MONKS. infuse / sod / rc / gardian = gg spike yet again over.

maybe u could add an ias for assasin ie for 5 seconds u attack 33% faster but you are crippled for x seconds when this stance ends or somthing, idk

but just stop nerfing ias, ppl will find others, as u saw b4 when they nerfed boa ppl just used tiger, nerf tiger ppl use flail, nerf flail (make my hammer warrior useless in the prosess) ppl use somthing else but u have killed 2 great warrior ias ( tiger for pve at least) and ppl are still going to use sp sins so u have got, no where.

Draikin · Nov 08, 2007, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Although I've seen people run BMT -> Jungle Strike -> Trampling Ox -> Falling Lotus, Twisting/BoS which seemed be almost equally effective.

Arguably it's even more effective. The combo is almost just as fast thanks to the 1/2 activation on Jungle Strike and ends up dealing even more damage. If only BLS is nerfed SP sins will just use this combo instead. Regarding the IAS, it's easier just to stop them from working in combination with SP (lose current stance, disable non-attack skills) instead of nerfing every IAS skill in the game.

Snow Bunny · Nov 08, 2007, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monk Gsb

wow gogogo nerf every IAS for every profesion because ppl cant use there brains on how to counter sp sin GFG.

if u are talking about hb take mass hex removal veil works nice teamed with reverse.

and take a hex build you as a mes/a ineptitude >clumsy coungers + auspisious and recall + 1d/p 1 mo/n and 1 mo/e degen there monk out with counger phantasm > auspisious > nightmare, then go back to ineptitude > clumsy spam on the sin, the monk wont be able to heal himself and the sin at the same time.

if ur talking about ra/ta eaisy
take stances...
and/or sheild bash and time it for his 2nd lead ( yes u can actualy use it on somthing other then monks (zomg)).

in ha, the meta being r/w with 2 n/rit's and 1 rit/mes(expell)

expell + wep of ward ftw ? end of sp vs meta

most ballence teams run with 3 monks ( or 2 top class monk who shoudent die to a sp sin any ways) but if u die vs an sp sin with a 3 man backline, GET NEW MONKS. infuse / sod / rc / gardian = gg spike yet again over.

maybe u could add an ias for assasin ie for 5 seconds u attack 33% faster but you are crippled for x seconds when this stance ends or somthing, idk

but just stop nerfing ias, ppl will find others, as u saw b4 when they nerfed boa ppl just used tiger, nerf tiger ppl use flail, nerf flail (make my hammer warrior useless in the prosess) ppl use somthing else but u have killed 2 great warrior ias ( tiger for pve at least) and ppl are still going to use sp sins so u have got, no where.

If you nerf the IAS for an assassin, but keep it in the strength line scaled to strength you only nerf the sin IAS, but keep it nice for a warrior.

And this is a GvG discussion.

Impale/Falling Lotus/BLS are all problems. If you take the later two, your energy management is like pre-nerf SR.

payne · Nov 08, 2007, 06:10 PM // 18:10

nerf spirit-way and im happy ( most peoples opinion lol)

Captain Robo · Nov 08, 2007, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monk Gsb

wow gogogo nerf every IAS for every profesion because ppl cant use there brains on how to counter sp sin GFG.

The reason that Assassin skills do not include IAS is because Assassins deal ridiculous damage as it is. They don't NEED IAS to be good; but when they have it, their damage output becomes absolutely retarded, their chains are harder to interrupt, and they spike you down even faster.

The only professions that have a serious need for IAS are Dervish, Paragon, and Warrior, and all those classes have their own great options to do so. As far as I'm concerned, sins can keep their hands off IAS unless they want to use Frenzy.

Quote:

if ur talking about ra/ta eaisy
take stances...
and/or sheild bash and time it for his 2nd lead ( yes u can actualy use it on somthing other then monks (zomg)).

We're talking about GvG specifically, and no monk in his right mind would take Shield Bash into GvG; even for RA/TA, there are much better options.

Quote:

in ha, the meta being r/w with 2 n/rit's and 1 rit/mes(expell)

expell + wep of ward ftw ? end of sp vs meta

most ballence teams run with 3 monks ( or 2 top class monk who shoudent die to a sp sin any ways) but if u die vs an sp sin with a 3 man backline, GET NEW MONKS. infuse / sod / rc / gardian = gg spike yet again over.

What do you think everyone has been doing? If this worked, we wouldn't be discussing how SP sins are broken. SP sins don't just spike once and then call it a day; they do it as soon as their attacks are recharged. It's the constant output of this pressure that people can't deal with; and Expose Defenses totally owns any block web you want to put out.

Furthermore, if you're strictly talking about HA, that place has more problems than just SP sins in its meta. That's just the tip of the iceberg.

Quote:

maybe u could add an ias for assasin ie for 5 seconds u attack 33% faster but you are crippled for x seconds when this stance ends or somthing, idk

[skill]Flail[/skill]?

Quote:

but just stop nerfing ias, ppl will find others, as u saw b4 when they nerfed boa ppl just used tiger, nerf tiger ppl use flail, nerf flail (make my hammer warrior useless in the prosess) ppl use somthing else but u have killed 2 great warrior ias ( tiger for pve at least) and ppl are still going to use sp sins so u have got, no where.

Anet never killed any IAS skills, because Burst of Aggression and Tiger's Stance aren't viable skills on a good warrior bar.

But if you really, REALLY want to use those skills, all you have to do is throw some points into strength (which you should be doing anyway) because you're a warrior, and those skills aren't going to be any worse than they already are as long as you're a warrior. Your hammer warrior will be fine, because Flail is not going to be fundamentally changed in any way.

Also, please don't type like that anymore: type normally, people will appreciate it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

I think it's kind of amusing that 11 energy has the same "weight" as 18 seconds of poison.

Since most assassins will just explode you at the end of their combo, the poison degeneration off Falling Spider doesn't make as much of a difference as it used to. I think we'll be seeing a lot more of Falling Lotus.

Kaon · Nov 08, 2007, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

As far as I'm concerned, sins can keep their hands off IAS unless they want to use Frenzy.

Oh yeah! Straight after factions release the oldschool aod sin with golden phoenix strike, pro. A good friend of mine managed to get instakilled by rodgorts invocation frenzy healsigging, it dealt like 450 damage or so.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Nov 08, 2007, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

yes, and they work too well with IAS.

They work too well without IAS too was my point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Dropping Shadow Arts from the bar has left more attribute points available to put in CS anyway.

Shadow arts is only needed on solo sins, they're pretty much exclusively ran in pairs with a split monk, SP sins pretty much never specced shadow arts because of this.

Quote:

Trampling Ox + Falling Lotus might be the same problem all over again, and is going to make another mess to clean up when/if BLS finally sees a nerf. I think it's kind of amusing that 11 energy has the same "weight" as 18 seconds of poison. If Assassins were balanced when their attack chain wasn't paying for itself, I fail to see how energy management being part of a viable chain could possibly be a good idea.

It's stupid, if the lotus attacks get nerfed people will probably run attacker's insight or way of the lotus but at least that would cost them another skill slot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monk Gsb

if ur talking about ra/ta eaisy
take stances...

Expose.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monk Gsb

but just stop nerfing ias, ppl will find others, as u saw b4 when they nerfed boa ppl just used tiger, nerf tiger ppl use flail, nerf flail (make my hammer warrior useless in the prosess) ppl use somthing else but u have killed 2 great warrior ias ( tiger for pve at least) and ppl are still going to use sp sins so u have got, no where.

BoA and Tiger's Stance are bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draikin

Arguably it's even more effective. The combo is almost just as fast thanks to the 1/2 activation on Jungle Strike and ends up dealing even more damage. If only BLS is nerfed SP sins will just use this combo instead.

FLS needs a nerf too.

Quote:

Regarding the IAS, it's easier just to stop them from working in combination with SP (lose current stance, disable non-attack skills) instead of nerfing every IAS skill in the game.

It doesn't matter that IAS skills get nerfed as the only one that's actually good is frenzy, and frenzy is hardly viable on a sin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

The reason that Assassin skills do not include IAS is because Assassins deal ridiculous damage as it is. They don't NEED IAS to be good; but when they have it, their damage output becomes absolutely retarded, their chains are harder to interrupt, and they spike you down even faster.

The problem is not the IAS, it's the instagib chain and mainly the lotus skills.

Quote:

We're talking about GvG specifically, and no monk in his right mind would take Shield Bash into GvG; even for RA/TA, there are much better options.

Nothing wrong with shield bash on a monk..

Quote:

What do you think everyone has been doing? If this worked, we wouldn't be discussing how SP sins are broken. SP sins don't just spike once and then call it a day; they do it as soon as their attacks are recharged. It's the constant output of this pressure that people can't deal with; and Expose Defenses totally owns any block web you want to put out.

Sins don't really pressure, >90% of sin spikes at the stand won't do anything, but if you catch a monk off-guard or spike 2-3 targets at the same time you can get kills.

Quote:

Since most assassins will just explode you at the end of their combo, the poison degeneration off Falling Spider doesn't make as much of a difference as it used to. I think we'll be seeing a lot more of Falling Lotus.

Falling spider was never that good, poison is decent vs NPCs, otherwise it was only used because it allowed you to go from a dual attack to another dual attack without having to use a lead, BLS/BSS do this much better.

X Cytherea X · Nov 08, 2007, 06:49 PM // 18:49

black lotus strike is balanced because:
1. it needs a hex, preferably 2 in case one is stripped, which costs energy. it makes sense that you would get energy back for satisfying the condition of the skill, which may or may not be met. where else would you get the energy?
2. it has to actually hit. miss and block must be considered.
2a. and no, not all bls-dependent builds use expose.
2b. and even if it did, expose cooldown is over twice of bls.
3. at 10e it's not cheap. you must have at least 10e immediately after casting the hex or you stand there stupidly.
4. the energy return alone does not fuel the entire combo. at 13cs you get 18e. hoto-bss-bos-impale is 25e. tf-bss-bos is 25e. 30e for both comboes if you have an IAS. you're forced to use zealous unless you start from full energy.
5. nerfing it will cause one of two things, both of which uninteresting and unhealthy for sins and gameplay in general:
5a. useless waiting around for energy. as if sins didnt do enough waiting around already.
5b. you gimp the combo so it cant kill half a shit. it has a hard enough time killing as it is with everyone running 600hp give or take. sins' defining role is delivering fast, lethal damage. the need for class diversity is blinded by class hate.

Riotgear · Nov 08, 2007, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Shadow arts is only needed on solo sins, they're pretty much exclusively ran in pairs with a split monk, SP sins pretty much never specced shadow arts because of this.

Yes, I know, I'm saying that there isn't really any attribute pressure so having 13 critical strikes is trivial.

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

black lotus strike is balanced because:
1. it needs a hex, preferably 2 in case one is stripped, which costs energy. it makes sense that you would get energy back for satisfying the condition of the skill, which may or may not be met. where else would you get the energy?
2. it has to actually hit. miss and block must be considered.

That's a pretty harsh condition, good thing there isn't a 1/4-second cast hex with no aftercast that you can target on anyone within earshot that also puts you in melee range and hard-snares them so they can't kite it.

Quote:

3. at 10e it's not cheap. you must have at least 10e immediately after casting the hex or you stand there stupidly.

When it's at the start of the combo and pays for itself, yes, it is cheap. Equip zealous daggers and go hit something.

Quote:

5a. useless waiting around for energy. as if sins didnt do enough waiting around already.

In other words you have to pick targets opportunistically instead of spiking every time Expose, Siphon, or Shadow Prison is recharged.

Quote:

5b. you gimp the combo so it cant kill half a shit. it has a hard enough time killing as it is with everyone running 600hp give or take.

Archers don't have 600HP. At the stand you have teammates.

Quote:

the need for class diversity is blinded by class hate.

Forcing bad ideas into viability runs directly counter to balance.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Nov 08, 2007, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

black lotus strike is balanced because:
1. it needs a hex, preferably 2 in case one is stripped, which costs energy. it makes sense that you would get energy back for satisfying the condition of the skill, which may or may not be met. where else would you get the energy?
2. it has to actually hit. miss and block must be considered.
2a. and no, not all bls-dependent builds use expose.
2b. and even if it did, expose cooldown is over twice of bls.

If it misses it doesnt matter that you dont get the energy back, as you won't be able to follow up anyway.

Quote:

3. at 10e it's not cheap. you must have at least 10e immediately after casting the hex or you stand there stupidly.

So you have to have 20 energy if you're using SP, and you shouldn't have this because..?

Quote:

4. the energy return alone does not fuel the entire combo. at 13cs you get 18e. hoto-bss-bos-impale is 25e. tf-bss-bos is 25e. 30e for both comboes if you have an IAS. you're forced to use zealous unless you start from full energy.

You have regen, potentially zealous daggers and chance of critical hits.

Quote:

5. nerfing it will cause one of two things, both of which uninteresting and unhealthy for sins and gameplay in general:
5a. useless waiting around for energy. as if sins didnt do enough waiting around already.
5b. you gimp the combo so it cant kill half a shit. it has a hard enough time killing as it is with everyone running 600hp give or take.

You're an idiot, no other profession can do anywhere near the amount of damage a sin can do in 3-4 seconds, just because you can't solo spike something with a 100% success rate doesn't mean sins aren't overpowered.

Quote:

the need for class diversity is blinded by class hate.

Profession: A/Mo

The need for game balance is blinded by class love.

moriz · Nov 08, 2007, 07:29 PM // 19:29

i think all you narutards need to realize that we don't "hate" any profession. sometimes, a profession simply needs to be nerfed into the ground for the good of the game. assassins just happens to be one of those professions.

Quote:

They work too well without IAS too was my point.

and they work even better with an IAS, but i think everyone realizes that already.

the point of nerfing all IAS to 1....x is so that the primary professions (in this case, warrior and ranger) can still use them just fine. after all, there are no warrior and ranger builds in existance that do not have attributes in strength and expertise respectively. however, nerfing the lower end duration on those IAS stances will make them useless to other professions using them on a secondary, like assassins.